Text of the conversation:

Shen Nanpeng (hereinafter referred to as Shen):What is the market share of 2030 (year) in the battery field in Ningde era?

Mr Tsang Yuk-Kwan (hereinafter referred to as Zeng):I don't really want to position ourselves as the manufacturer of electric car batteries, because this is our foundation, put the battery on the car, this is our foundation, what I am thinking about now is that there are three directions.，One of the directions is to take the battery-powered battery as the core.Mobile fossil energy (refers to batteries)Replace it.

No matter the electric car just mentioned, or in the future, it is not a car, for example, the robot just mentioned, basically it needs a battery as an energy storage device to move, an efficient energy storage device.

The second one.We also hope to combine energy storage with power generation, especially new solar cells, and then replace it with fixed fossil fuels, like burning coal all day.

ThirdWe still hope that in certain areas, we will not go to the self-driving (industry) of passenger cars to do things, but in specific areas, (for example) more cooperation between intelligence and electrification, in this way we can do a lot of things.

Right, like a mine. What I see is very excited, that is, from mining to this state to crushing ore to transporting ore, everything can be intelligently electrified, so that it can not only save costs, reduce emissions, but also ensure safety.

So in these special areas like this, it is us.(Ningde era)The company also wants to do, so we probably have three main directions.

(so what if) how much of my battery will it take in 2030?

That depends on our efforts. Let's see if we are cooperating well with Jiaotong University.If the cooperation is good, we may account for 50% or 60%. If the cooperation is not good, maybe the company no longer exists.

沈：You talked about the cooperation of Jiaotong University. I saw a news last year about setting up an R & D center with Jiaotong University. I think it is really good what to do. With the combination of industry, university and research, you go back to your alma mater. What direction are you looking for?

曾：Basically, it is still in three directions, one is the ability to make a larger profit in engineering.

In intelligent manufacturing, we will cooperate very deeply, because to put it bluntly, making batteries is not such a difficult thing to do at first, everyone is in the lab.(both can)Make a random battery.

I am very happy, because I remember the first time I started to do it, when two black things were painted and added a diaphragm to produce electrolytic charging, there was still electricity on it.

(what I'm going to talk about here is)In fact, it is more difficult because the battery is a dangerous material, but when the battery is getting bigger and bigger, a car has 100 batteries strung together, and 1 million cars should have 1 million batteries.

And then do you charge and discharge once? You may have to charge and discharge 1000 times, multiplied by 100 million is 100 billion times.

There's a problem here. Everyone thinks there is something wrong with this car, but it is actually a 1/1000000 car. There is nothing you can do to control it.

We used to make about six Sigma, people say 3.4 parts per million, 3.4 parts per million level, we now have to achieve 1 / 1 billion level.

This has changed from 6 Sigma to 7.5 Sigma, so we have the honor to invite teacher Ni to really find a way to make extreme manufacturing, so making batteries is easier to learn than to master, and it is easier to learn, and anyone can do it. But to do really well, it is not easy, because it is a hard work, hard work and focused work, so it is very important to make it intelligently. Teacher Ni called it the limit.

(when we make products)When we reach a place where we are controlled to a small probability, a very small probability, this is a relatively difficult and uncomfortable place for us.

沈：So I said the cooperation of Jiaotong University.

曾: yes, it's very important, the cooperation is not good, maybe the company is gone. Do a good job.

沈：It's good. Yes, I also saw the news. Professor Ni joined Ningde, right?

You're going to say it should be here today, aren't you? I've always wanted to ask you how to trick you into joining Ningde, because I told you I saw it a few years ago. Professor Ni not only does a lot of academic work, but also works in the industry, right? How did you fool you to talk about Ningde.

Note: Ningde and Shanghai Jiaotong University have established industry-university-research cooperation, making use of Jiaotong University's engineering ability to cooperate deeply in intelligent manufacturing. Ni Jun is the dean of Michigan College of Shanghai Jiaotong University and a special professor of Shanghai Jiaotong University. he was hired as chief manufacturing officer and vice president of Ningde era and conducted in-depth cooperation with Jiaotong University. ]

曾：It doesn't matter what I do. I'll tell you later.

沈：Talk about how to be deceived, really how to attract. Ningde, of course, there are a large number of engineers in this place, right?

But you also have R & D centers in other cities. You just mentioned that batteries are not easy to do. How can you attract these talents to join you?

曾：I think there are several aspects of talent.One aspectIn fact, it is still a platform, because when you work in the Ningde era, you will have the opportunity to meet at least the most picky customers and the most leading customers in the battery industry in the world.

I can give you an example, because you worked in the Ningde era (you can communicate with many bosses), all the best engineers of Tesla, the CTO, of Tesla, are basically Stanford, and we have face-to-face meetings to work on projects and discuss problems together.

For young people, this kind of opportunity and growth is not easy.

The second one.I think it is experience, that is, we have accumulated a lot of experience and data, as well as data on battery materials. As long as you work in the Ningde era, you will certainly have access to this data and have the opportunity to use it.

ThirdIn terms of treatment, we were not bad, our company went public, and then our stock options were also good, so we said that it also provided a platform for a person's struggle to contribute to the cause of new energy for mankind, and to provide a platform for the spiritual and material well-being of employees.

What is the spirit? Why can't we Chinese be the first in the world? why can't we Chinese things make great contributions to the new energy industry and mankind? If there is such an ideal, this is a talent that we (Ningde) welcome very much.

沈：There should be both spiritual and economic aspects, right? When it comes to the battery industry, that is to say, when it comes to the electric car industry, I participated in what was supposed to be a private entrepreneur event last week. Later, the Huaxia Alumni Association did not expect that this photo was exposed. Li, from the ideal car that attended the meeting today, would like to be there, too.

Well, at that time, there were Xiaomi, ideal Xiaopeng, and Wang Chuanfu of BYD. They laughed at themselves and said that there were five of us who built cars, and there were many who wanted to build cars, including Huawei, including Apple, and so on.

But now it seems that there are a lot of people who want to build cars, so how many car factories in the world can accommodate? this is indeed a big problem.

So their five families said that in 10 years' time, one or five years later, our five families will still be in? Are the five families the Top five? of the world?

I feel that compared with them, your position is so enviable, it is in your world, of course the competitors have, right?

We have some like Panasonic or, LG chemical, but on the whole, you seem to be in a very leading position, so do you still have any anxiety?

They may be very anxious, although Lei Jun did not say on the surface, I believe he is very anxious, there are so many people to build cars.

曾：I think smart people are more anxious, and our team is stupid, because we set up the stage, that is, we move bricks to lay the foundation, and they perform all kinds of different plays on the stage.

Just now, we alumni from Shenyang, we also talked about it. I basically know these bosses of the automobile factory very well, because they are a big industry. They can load a real car as a travel tool, and they can also load a real intelligent terminal. It has a lot of imaginable space on it, where you can use the thinking of the Internet.

They all want to kill others, and then become Internet thinking, and finally harvest all the benefits of this platform, so they are competing to the end, will be a very great company, but do not know who can compete.

For us, we set up a platform, move a brick, and let them dance on it.So we are the object of oppression, and then we will survive better.

沈：Yes. This year, I think it has already started in the second half of last year. In many places, there is a shortage of production capacity, such as semiconductors, and so is this battery, so I actually want to ask you a more acute question. When these people come to ask Zeng for batteries, how do you distribute them?

Xiaopeng ideal and the future three all want to ask you to stick to it, but your quantity will be fixed this year, what are you going to do? How do you distribute your participation?

曾：Alumni are a consideration.

沈：Do I need to drink more wine with you, or do I need to go to the Ningde office several times? how can I get the battery?

曾：Nanpeng is now a higher and higher level of host, very humorous. In fact, my consideration is very simple, I do not guess this ability, this car factory can do more, I think they are very good, they are all smarter than us. So we dare not guess them, we just want them to have any confidence in themselves.

So usually we adopt the method, OK, you contract the production line, that is not an one-year contract, this year you want you next year, the year after next year, the year after next year, five years and ten years after next, how much do you want in the end?

He said that I want a lot of 100th GWh, so if you can pay for the production line, I will build a house for you and do it for you. Of course cash is king in your plan.

Many of the car factories I see have confidence in themselves. if they are confident, it shows that they have a good plan, and then he will make up his mind and say yes, I will take care of the three production lines.

The front to buy the production line, after the purchase of these three production lines to ship, this is a great confidence. Then some people say that I don't have that much money, so I'll talk to you about a long-term cooperation. How to cooperate?

For example, if your output fluctuates within plus or minus 15% every year, everyone will be fine. If it is low, how much money will I pay you, and so on. In fact, the promise that there is no money is not serious.

沈：I understand, the key is still the key or cash. Let's talk about what do you think of the two technical lines on the product, ternary battery and lithium iron phosphate. I'm sure a lot of people have asked. I'm here today or I'm asking. Do you think that in three or four years' time, what proportion will these two paths account for in three or four years' time?

曾：Whether it is ternary battery or lithium iron phosphate battery, we are used to fear and anxiety, so bitter children cook western food, Chinese food and everything, so we basically cannot be partial to the subject and do everything in the whole industry chain.

At present, if there are more and more charging piles mentioned just now, the mileage will not need to be so long.

The growth rate of the lithium iron phosphate battery we are talking about will be very fast and should be cheaper. At the same time, the mileage should not be so long, because people who have not driven an electric car are more anxious about the mileage, and those who have really driven it are less anxious.

So it should be said that the proportion of lithium iron phosphate will gradually increase. The percentage of three yuan will gradually decrease.

But there are still many high-end cars that need long range, and three-yuan cars that need high energy density will still exist.

I remember someone asked me three years ago, and they said that the people who made lithium iron phosphate told me that I would quit the supply chain and there was no business. You see, 80 to 90 percent of this is three yuan, after a while.(iron lithium)It's gone, isn't it? it was a few years ago, wasn't it?

I told him that you were completely wrong, so do it quickly. So people who listen to me are like German nanoscale, so they do it quickly.

Just like those of us who have been hungry for a long time, I suddenly thought of Jiaotong University. I finished my self-study in the evening. I wanted to buy six steamed buns. I was very hungry before I bought it. In fact, you can only eat two or three. After eating, you can't finish the remaining two or three.

The mileage is the same. Because you are worried that you want 600 kilometers, in fact, you are almost 200 kilometers.

沈：The product structure of such a battery changes. What will be the impact on the upstream material of the battery?

曾：There will be great changes in the supply chain of materials, which is a matter of valuable investment. Because the amount of nickel and cobalt will be reduced, but the other amount means that phosphate or lithium carbonate is still the same. However, lithium carbonate will also be reduced, because the number of lithium carbonate used in a ton of lithium cobalt or ternary is not the same as that of lithium iron phosphate.

So there are changes in the whole front end, and there are some changes in the supply chain.

Always ask lithium iron phosphate and ternary, this is not appropriate, why not? People who are not really skilled in R & D, investors ask like this. Because the back is not necessarily lithium iron phosphate, nor is it necessarily ternary.

We have something new, but of course we don't talk about it now.

沈：Solid state battery. Can it be commercialized in 3 or 5 years?

曾：To put it bluntly, solid-state batteries should be truly commercialized and go to the head of the car. I think it is very difficult, dare not say, I think three or five years in the car is not called all-solid-state battery.

For example, I recently learned that Toyota is going to show off its solid-state battery car at this year's Olympic Games.

At that time, we Chinese will follow suit again, so if you want to speculate in the stock market, you can wait for that time. Now the solid-state battery can be fried again, because it will be held in the Olympic Games and will receive many leaders. This is a solid-solid-state battery car. This is our Japanese technology.At that time, the Chinese stock investors in our media are jubilant and can stir up another round.

沈：Today's Jiaotong University, these investors, including Chen Guangming, are well-known long-term investors in the market, so they will not be affected in the short term.

曾：Seize short-term opportunities in the long run. Guangming, I know you are too smart.

沈：You just talked about the steamed buns of Jiaotong University, which seems to evoke a lot of memories of Jiaotong University. You said that you were in Jiaotong University for four years, in fact, it is more interesting to think about it. I was at Jiaotong University for four years, and we entered Jiaotong University at the same time. Since we had never seen each other, but Jiaotong University was also very big at that time. These four years.

曾：My biggest feeling, a very free atmosphere, which may not be available to other schools, the free atmosphere is very good, because why? A free atmosphere allows many people to give full play to their intrinsic personality and strength,. I think this may be a more important thing in the university.

沈：Yes, and then, in fact, General Manager Zeng and I had a period of common entrepreneurship when we had a history of co-investors, which you may not know. In fact, Zeng's first stage of starting a business was not catl.

曾：Remove A from the front.

沈：It was fun at that time. Carlyle invested in atl, and Ctrip, one is a very non-technology company (Ctrip), and the other is a very technical company (ATL). I remember we went to it together once. What are your feelings about that part of starting a business?

曾：I think the ignorant are fearless. That part of starting a business should be fun, the first time starting a business is actually the most fun, and the second time is actually not fun. I used to work in a foreign-funded factory for 10 years, but now it is very annoying to see that product, which we call disk drive, hard drive.

Why bother? That's what we watch all day, because at that time, we talked about Moore's Law saying that 60% of the chip, and our density at that time was 100% per year, which was faster than the chip.

What does it mean? That is, a hard disk just came out in the sixties and seventies, what did IBM say about making a hard disk at that time? I remember that I have increased by about 1 million times in 10 years, which is of such an order of magnitude. But it is very annoying to see, because I am also a troublesome person, a little like the new and hate the old.

At a glance, I still make this product. I have been doing this product for many years every time. I am very tired. When I get home, I am already aesthetically tired, so I am making a major decision on which product to change.

沈：It was a very wise decision, but when you went to do catl, you moved to Ningde when you made batteries. It seems that the engineer team is not easy to recruit, right?

曾：That's not true. Atl was founded in Guangdong. When I was in Guangdong, because I didn't dare to make batteries, I didn't learn the electrochemistry you just mentioned. The advantage of our engineering is that we still have some understanding of safety management engineering.

We say that things are moving, and the laws of motion can be mastered, right? This is philosophy. Let's just take this law of motion and get it out. What is it?

First of all, establish the measurement, right? If you don't test, you will have no eyes, no feedback, no progress, and so on, so we have learned a lot in foreign companies over the past 10 years and learned a lot of testing methods, so we still know how to make mistakes and how to make mistakes in electronics.

What is the biggest problem? Will not sell, when it is made, the battery will be inflated, and then it will not be sold, I do not know where to sell it. It's hard to sell batteries just the way they are.

So I think there are a lot of entrepreneurial teams just now, and the hardest first step is to sell it to whom? How to trick him into buying your battery and think your battery is cheaper than his approved battery. It had to be like this in the first place.

沈：For a company like Ningde era today, I believe that with these leading manufacturing enterprises in China, including some service-oriented enterprises, they may all consider how to consider internationalization.

曾：The problem of internationalization is particularly important. We have good luck for us. When we first started making power batteries, we worked with BMW. It is an international company itself, so your products can be used in his Chinese products, and his German products can also be used.

So it's natural to say now that BMW Mercedes-Benz Volkswagen, France's German Jaguar Land Rover.

These people want us to invest in Germany, so we also went to invest in Germany at their invitation. Why do you do it in Germany? what we compare to hesitate is that it is very slow and the cost is very high, so this is a problem.

They do a lot of things step by step, and it is even hard for you to imagine that the road through the village is also blocked by the villagers, saying that if you want to pollute my environment, you will finally have a meeting with the council in his village to pay you a fine. or how much to contribute to you, is also to buy road money, but in another form.

Then let you pull the dirt cart by, so all kinds of he talks about the law and what the council says, to put it bluntly, but the efficiency is very low.

沈：But there are still many people who are willing to go to Germany (to build factories).

曾：The advanced nature of his talents, the advanced nature of the upstream supply chain, in this case, what do you do?

When we went there, we happened to serve him. I think our thinking, our whole model, our mechanism, our China is still very flexible, so we still understand that they originally did this, so we found a way to do it.

But in Germany, the future of the auto industry, power batteries or whatever, it is really worrying.

This is why the capital market is the smartest, and these capital players are the smartest, making Tesla's valuation so high that the market capitalization of all the traditional automakers in the world, such as Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Volkswagen, Toyota and Honda, is not as high as that of Tesla.

If it is still the original golden age of globalization, if people really engage in trade and do not engage in politics, it is true that there may not be 10 car factories left in the next decade, and they will be as monopolized as mobile phones.

Like today's smartphones, Apple, Samsung, Huawei, OPPO, vivo, Xiaomi, who else? So only Chinese and American players play together.

If electric cars and smart cars go on like this, if the state does not protect them, and if it is purely in terms of market-oriented competitiveness, it is almost like this. A player with a clear hand index is running as fast as he can.

沈：Let me ask you a question, of course, it has nothing to do with you directly, but it also has something to do with it. If 10 years later, there are 10 remaining, how many are from China?

曾：I think 70% of the enterprises will come from China. The United States and China are the most suitable for starting a business. Recently, I talked to people in Tesla and found that they are very passionate, have a lot of ideas, and have strong execution. In the future, China and the United States are the most promising for new intelligent manufacturing.

The following are questions on the spot:

Q: what do you think of intelligent electrification? The development of vehicles? The impact of chip companies and the industry chain?

沈：The intelligent revolution will have a great impact, and autopilot is the most important. The logic of domestic substitution is that, like terminal car manufacturers, it is very likely that China will account for a large part and will naturally want to order parts from China.

曾：The chassis gradually transitions to domain control distribution. The car will become a smart terminal, the most obvious feature may not be the current appearance, may be the appearance of a private cinema, the appearance of KTV, will not be called "car" in the future. You can do all kinds of things.

Q: how to make the strategic decision of the company?

Zeng: by accumulation and penetration. I am not afraid that the clouds will cover my eyes, because I am at the top of the mountain. The sharing of cars does not mean that there will be fewer and fewer cars. When a car becomes an intelligent terminal, it will be a very private space. Different people have different needs, and the car may become a different space. One person may have more than one car, because the car may become very smart and will do all kinds of things for you.

Q: how do science and engineering students deepen their professional fields and make investments?

曾：How do you want to realize your value, is it in the spiritual realm, or do you want to achieve material wealth? I prefer to cultivate my skills deeply. After achieving success in one out of ten fields, it is easier to succeed when you come out to start a business.

沈：I very much agree with General Manager Zeng. Technology is the first consideration. If you really don't want to do it, you can consider the area of investment.

Q: the development of fuel cell vehicles?

曾：Fuel cell cars can't compete with electric cars in cost, but energy storage like hydrogen is good. Fuel cells might as well be added.